1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:05,960 Maybe we hadn't lived our lives before the screens without Microsoft's founder. 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,920 How does he think it turned out? Bill Gates is our guest tonight. 3 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,280 Were the world better before we started scrolling? 4 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,320 Marianne Mörck, Gustaf Norén, Anders Hansen– 5 00:00:33,480 --> 00:00:38,720 -Momo Alikar and Julia Lyskova will discuss this in a moment. 6 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:44,680 But first: Easily accessible software made him the richest man in the world. 7 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,440 But 99 percent of his fortune must be added under 20 years– 8 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:56,440 – on health and development projects too poor. - Welcome, Bill Gates. 9 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,840 We met in a studio twelve years ago. 10 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:11,040 I remember I had the world chess champion in the same room. 11 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:16,840 I tricked you into playing chess against him. Have you gotten better? 12 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,560 No, I haven't worked out. 13 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:24,400 I will never beat Magnus, but it was great meeting him. 14 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:31,720 - You held out for quite a while. - Chess is fun, but he was probably kind. 15 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,760 A lot has happened since we met twelve years ago. 16 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:43,880 You have turned 70, you are divorced, you have become a grandfather. 17 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:49,000 What does a typical day in your life look like? 18 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:54,560 - You must be an early riser. - No, I'm a night person. 19 00:01:54,720 --> 00:02:01,680 When I was young I wanted to do computers, and the computers were free at night. 20 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,480 It comes naturally to me. 21 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,560 I think and program at night and sleep for a long time. 22 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,440 -You still program? -Yes. 23 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:18,600 But these days can AI program for us. 24 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:24,320 I am quite impressed with the development the last six months, but... 25 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:29,800 A typical day... My full time job is the Gates Foundation. 26 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,960 I have talented researchers there. 27 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:39,120 I travel a lot. Partly to countries that help– 28 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:45,840 – like Sweden, which has been generous, but also to Africa, India and China. 29 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,360 I spend a third of my time to look for projects. 30 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:58,400 Do you have strict routines for when to eat? and train, to endure? 31 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:05,440 Yes, I play racket sports – both tennis and pickleball. 32 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,480 It keeps me in shape. 33 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:13,440 I train with my trainer two, three times a week. 34 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:18,600 And I love to read, so I make sure I have time for it. 35 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:23,840 You have said that you have to learn something every day. 36 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:29,480 Yes, and it's easier today. These AI systems… 37 00:03:29,640 --> 00:03:35,560 If I am curious about a disease or a new product... 38 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,440 I used to email experts and waited for an answer. 39 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:45,280 Now I often get the knowledge from amazing AI systems. 40 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:51,760 -How are you as a grandfather? - Well... I read books to them. 41 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:58,160 I have two granddaughters. The oldest is three and the second is one. 42 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:05,680 The three-year-old is as fun as anything and I prioritize greeting them. 43 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,600 They live in New York, so I'm there quite often. 44 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:16,560 - Are you the kind of grandfather who plays on his knees? - I must be. 45 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:21,320 - Will the knees hold for it? -Absolutely. No problem. 46 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:29,040 Children have always been the focus in your work with the foundation. 47 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,920 You recently made a change in the foundation. 48 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:39,440 It is now called the Gates Foundation instead for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. 49 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,920 You have also changed the foundation's goals by notifying– 50 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,480 - that in twenty years it will be over. 51 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,680 Why then? I thought you were thinking long term. 52 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:57,320 As you said, I have turned 70, so in 20 years I will be 90. 53 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:04,800 The Gates Foundation was founded in 2000 and has achieved more than expected. 54 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:12,280 Our role in reducing child mortality from more than ten million to less than five– 55 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,680 - has exceeded my expectations. 56 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:22,720 I am incredibly lucky which has insanely large resources. 57 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:30,160 We have donated $100 billion, and over 20 years there will be another 200. 58 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:37,320 The main focus is child mortality, which I want to halve once more. 59 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,800 If we invest now, we can achieve more. 60 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:48,160 Rich people in 20 years will see what we failed to accomplish– 61 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:54,200 –and understand how AI has changed the world, and then they can deal with the problems. 62 00:05:54,360 --> 00:06:01,120 A document with my wishes will be completely redundant. 63 00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:07,840 That the foundation has an end date has actually made us more focused. 64 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:14,080 “Can we cure HIV, can we cure malaria? What about the malnutrition?" 65 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,320 There is much we do not yet understand– 66 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:23,720 - but to get rid of malnutrition would be even more important than curing diseases. 67 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:30,440 And the need is of course more obvious now– 68 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:35,840 – given that many countries cuts down on aid. 69 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:43,800 We see, for the first time in twenty years, that child mortality is increasing again. 70 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:48,640 You've said it's partly due to the cuts in USAID– 71 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,040 – as you mean will kill millions. 72 00:06:53,200 --> 00:07:00,040 You reacted quite strongly when Elon Musk made the cuts. 73 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:07,040 Yes... That the world's richest man appears– 74 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:13,080 –and make cuts which kills millions of children… 75 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:19,480 It is the opposite of what humanity should be dealing with. 76 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:26,560 And that he didn't even admit it makes it even more arrogant. 77 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:33,480 He fired people, withdrew aid and called it a waste of money. 78 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:38,960 There is no doubt about that that the money saves millions of lives. 79 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:44,240 So when withdrawing aid - money for vaccines, mosquito nets– 80 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:51,120 – for tuberculosis control... The efforts ended very suddenly. 81 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:57,120 The entire increase in child mortality has occurred in Africa. 82 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:02,280 I think we can get back much of the aid– 83 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:08,360 - and that we over twenty years can get back on track– 84 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,680 -and halve child mortality again. 85 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,880 Have you talked...? Yes. 86 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,080 Have you talked to him? Do you know Elon? 87 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:25,680 I know Elon. No, I haven't spoken to him. 88 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:31,120 When people talk about this then he just denies it. 89 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:38,720 Could it have to do with him not have visited the countries you are traveling in? 90 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,240 Yes. Anyone traveling around and see the work being done– 91 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:48,280 –in northern Nigeria, Democratic Republic of the Congo... 92 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:53,240 You are touched and think: "Wow, this is amazing!" 93 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,760 His subordinates were naive. 94 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:02,480 They found a grant to Gaza which had to do with sexual health. 95 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,480 Then they said that it concerned condoms for Hamas. 96 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:12,480 But it was about a province in Mozambique where children are born with HIV. 97 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:19,520 So when they withdrew the grants gave birth to hundreds of mothers with HIV. 98 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:22,440 Extremely tragic. 99 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,520 You say that Elon Musk and this kills millions. 100 00:09:27,680 --> 00:09:33,880 Shouldn't you be as critical against his boss? 101 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,760 - Isn't that Trump's policy? -Yes. 102 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,840 I'm talking to Trump to try to undo this. 103 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:49,480 I say, “You don't become popular if you increase the number of deaths." 104 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:55,600 The deaths happen very far away, and in rich countries you think... 105 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,880 Aid is a small part of the budget– 106 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:05,040 -but the cost of an aging population and defense spending increases… 107 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,480 So we have to argue our case wherever we go. 108 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:16,320 This part of the world always has been generous, this is how we agree. 109 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,800 You want to improve the world. 110 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:25,480 But Great Britain, Germany and France has also made cuts. 111 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:30,640 When you talk to Mr. Trump, He then realizes… 112 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,400 Does he agree that his policies are killing children? 113 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:43,040 That he is willing to meet me at least makes it a little easier. 114 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,080 I tell him that this should be prioritized– 115 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,880 - and that it looks bad. 116 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:56,520 So I think the aid will come back. 117 00:10:56,680 --> 00:11:01,160 I talk a lot with Congress, and there it looks promising. 118 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,360 They seem to want to increase the appropriations again. 119 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:10,160 There has been a debate in Europe about how Trump should be handled. 120 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:16,000 You've been dealing with Trump, but also other presidents. 121 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:22,160 The theory in Europe now is that flattery didn't take us all the way. 122 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:27,400 We are perceived as weak. Flattery is perceived as weakness. 123 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:33,040 - Do you agree with that? - It is very complex. 124 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:38,160 I had dinner with the Danish foreign minister last night. 125 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,400 I said I thought that he behaved excellently. 126 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:50,240 I hope that situation, which I don't understand, can be handled. 127 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,240 -The situation with Greenland? -Just. 128 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,200 The US has been less positive and predictably– 129 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:03,400 – and it's a mistake to risk cooperation with Europe. 130 00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:11,640 We need to discuss defense spending, though we can do it in a respectful way. 131 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,920 Everyone wins if it is managed in the right way. 132 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,680 It is... 133 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:26,800 Part of the problem, as you said, is the unpredictability. 134 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:32,520 Since you are here… It has begun to be feared in Europe that the US– 135 00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:38,720 – as a kind of punishment if we don't do what America wants– 136 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,720 –can shut down Microsoft. 137 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:47,240 It would have consequences for Europeans. 138 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,840 Is that even possible? 139 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,520 - I don't think so. - Then you must not answer! 140 00:12:56,680 --> 00:13:01,280 - Maybe I'm biased... - You shouldn't believe. 141 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:07,040 It's about that strong economies niche themselves. 142 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:12,000 Europe is more dependent on American natural gas now. 143 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:17,520 So that we act capriciously may turn out to be a mistake. 144 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:22,680 I have told the administration that if you want tech companies to grow– 145 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:28,520 - then you are not making it easier for us through to be tough on Europe with taxes. 146 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:33,600 It would be better to reassure Europe that everything is stable. 147 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:40,360 Those who use these services must feel that they are trustworthy. 148 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:47,040 I want the US to be able to trust Europe and vice versa. 149 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,200 If this were to happen, how would that happen then? 150 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,520 Well... the US is very strong militarily. 151 00:13:55,680 --> 00:14:00,160 One can imagine lots of crazy scenarios– 152 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:05,880 -because the US has invested so much in their military. 153 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:11,240 But such negative thoughts are not very constructive. 154 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:17,520 So you hope it won't happen, but you are not sure? 155 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:21,080 I had been sure, until recently– 156 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,520 - and in three years I'll probably be safe again. 157 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,560 When you started... 158 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:39,040 My impression was that tech leaders were on the left politically. 159 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,600 But now it looks different. Does that surprise you? 160 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:48,080 It is about two different things. 161 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:54,960 When the president is very powerful and you are a company manager– 162 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,240 - then you want to avoid attacks, so... 163 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:05,560 The President of the United States is very powerful, so they want to be on good terms with him. 164 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,960 It benefits them. That's the one. 165 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:17,200 There are people in the tech industry who are MAGA or America First supporters. 166 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,720 It surprises me a little, and I am not one of them. 167 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:27,480 Do you think that the turbulence as we experience in the world… 168 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:34,440 To what extent it can be considered depends on how we use technology and communicate? 169 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:41,520 That's a good question. The statistics show that trust decreased– 170 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:46,960 – even before digitization and the social media. 171 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:53,000 A good thing about the Nordics is that trust is quite high– 172 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,360 – even if it has been chipped at the edges also here. 173 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:03,840 Trust is important. Both when talking with their neighbors, if something political... 174 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,680 Can we discuss and listen to someone else's opinion? 175 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,360 It can get countries like USA and China to agree. 176 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,360 The reduced trust depends to some extent on the digital– 177 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,640 - but it's about more than that. 178 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:26,880 That part of the population who is not as rich or well-educated– 179 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:34,080 –experiences a lack of respect and possibilities. We have to get to the core. 180 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,600 Would they be satisfied if we stopped all immigration? 181 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:46,640 It is constantly repeated, and certainly one can go in that direction– 182 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:52,760 - but I'm not sure that it would solve today's polarization. 183 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:58,080 In 1975 you were there and founded Microsoft. 184 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:03,880 Be the future you imagined in any way similar to what we see today? 185 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:11,400 Yes. I was lucky to be a young man with imagination and an open mind– 186 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,040 -and imagined a digital revolution– 187 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:21,160 -where you had a mobile phone and could order a taxi and engage in digital commerce. 188 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:27,320 The PC revolution along with the internet and the mobile phone... 189 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:33,200 I thought computing would be accessible to all, with good software. 190 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:36,880 Microsoft could stand for a large part of the software. 191 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:44,920 Everything up to the AI breakthrough is true with what I imagined. 192 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:50,280 -Even social media? - It's the first time... 193 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:58,080 I used to see digitization as something good. The problem was the digital divide. 194 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:03,960 Some students do not have a computer or some countries cannot afford. 195 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:07,800 We thought they just had to get cheaper. 196 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:14,440 But some digital activities are negative, especially for the younger ones. 197 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,440 We see that in part with social media, and it surprised me. 198 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:26,720 Digitization would bring transparency around the state, law and science. 199 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:33,000 I thought everything would be fine. But I was a bit naive there. 200 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,920 Have you, as a parent and grandparent worried you– 201 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,920 -for children's screen time and tried to limit it? 202 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,560 Books like The Anxious Generation... 203 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,240 -Jonathan Haidt's book. - Exactly that. 204 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:55,520 It shows that we probably have to be careful– 205 00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:00,760 -with children's use of mobiles and social media– 206 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,160 - both in and out of school. 207 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,600 I am impressed by countries like Australia who try something new. 208 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:15,360 It's hard, because it becomes an addiction. 209 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:22,200 But we have to adapt, and this is just the beginning. 210 00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:30,480 The AI systems make it even more difficult to determine what children should have access to. 211 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:35,960 Do you think that the tech companies to some extent have been irresponsible? 212 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,880 Maybe some, but… 213 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,000 But it is the state which will make up rules. 214 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,480 They don't do that. Isn't that the problem? 215 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:55,280 It is not enough to rely only on the companies. 216 00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:02,800 Microsoft and Google are great companies. I am most familiar with them. 217 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,480 They want to be good citizens and perceived correctly. 218 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:13,120 Sometimes you can't predict how the technology will be used. 219 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:20,880 When I visit companies through my foundation like Open AI and asking for help– 220 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:27,000 -are they very interested in community efforts, so they have a good side. 221 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:34,040 But we can't let them decide what teenagers should be exposed to– 222 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,960 -or what the rules should look like at school. 223 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:43,440 You started as a programmer– 224 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,320 - and then you became a leader for one of the world's largest companies. 225 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,840 - Did it feel natural to lead? -No. 226 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,680 Mathematics came naturally. 227 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,320 I got to use my skills– 228 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:08,440 –and hire people who were good at it leadership, sales and marketing. 229 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:14,320 And I had to learn to lead others. I could lead those who were like me. 230 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:22,040 But people are motivated by different things. It's not always best to be harsh. 231 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,520 - Were you hard? - Yes, because I am hard on myself. 232 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:31,600 I controlled others in the same way. If I don't understand, I'm an idiot. 233 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,800 When others didn't understand I called them "idiots". 234 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:41,920 Thanks! Compared to you, most people are idiots, right? 235 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:48,600 For a certain type of developer can that leadership style work. 236 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:53,720 We had an incredible development team and hired smart people. 237 00:21:53,880 --> 00:22:00,040 But as a company, we have to work together with different countries and sell products. 238 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:07,600 Even if you are smart in one area cannot be transferred to everything else. 239 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:14,640 You were also forced to learn how important politicians are. 240 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:22,280 You have to get to know politicians in order to run the company. 241 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,160 You have cooperated with several presidents and world leaders. 242 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,800 Who has made the strongest impression on you? 243 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,640 The most amazing person was Nelson Mandela. 244 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:41,760 He led South Africa away from the apartheid regime– 245 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,600 -with very limited violence. 246 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,960 He acknowledged that HIV was a problem when others did not. 247 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:55,720 He held HIV-infected toddlers. 248 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:00,080 He is at the top of the list and inspires me. 249 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:13,400 How do you think about your legacy? How do you think you will be remembered? 250 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:20,040 Oddly enough, my main goal is with work in public health– 251 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,440 –to eradicate polio and malaria. 252 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:29,160 I want whoever reads about malaria will wonder what it is. 253 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,960 I don't have as a goal to be remembered yourself. 254 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:39,520 There are those who know me, like my three children. 255 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:44,280 I have some grandchildren and hopefully get more. 256 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,760 But apart from my relatives I don't aim to be remembered. 257 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:57,480 I want to solve these problems, so we can move on to other things. 258 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:06,960 If you could travel back in time in a machine that Elon has made… 259 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,040 ...then what would you change about your life? 260 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:20,640 I've been lucky enough to feel it presumptuous to want to make even more money. 261 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:27,640 But I could have gotten better at it to lead different people. 262 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,760 Microsoft came into conflict with United States government regarding antitrust laws. 263 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,200 I'm probably the luckiest of all. 264 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:44,400 I've had a fantastic career which gave me great resources. 265 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,400 Now I have another fantastic career. 266 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,880 I have wonderful children and friends. 267 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:59,440 If I changed something it probably wouldn't end as fantastically. 268 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,120 But you have said– 269 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:08,680 -that you really regret it that you got to know Jeffrey Epstein. 270 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,240 Could it have affected your last name? 271 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:18,800 I met him because he was a friend with many rich people. 272 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,800 There were no women involved. He came to dinners. 273 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:27,240 And I often participate to raise money for charity. 274 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:34,560 But it didn't work, so I felt stupid because I had even hung out with him. 275 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:40,080 Are you bothered by the pictures? on you and him? 276 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,160 No. 277 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:50,400 I probably had 6-7 dinners with him and it is well known. 278 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:57,120 - He is like a ghost who haunts everyone. -Oh no. 279 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,920 All information will be made public. 280 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:08,840 Some may have participated in horrible things, but all who knew him are embarrassed. 281 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:16,680 You have three children who are all busy with philanthropy in different ways. 282 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,040 Which of them is most like you? 283 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:25,920 You could consider me a geek who loves science. 284 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:32,200 My youngest, Phoebe, is the least like me because she is so social. 285 00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:38,880 But when it comes to taking risks, like starting a new business– 286 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:44,280 -and devote all the time to it, she is very similar to me. 287 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,160 The other two resemble me in other ways– 288 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:55,280 -but the drive to start a business has only one of them received. And it's great fun. 289 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:02,680 In an old interview you said that if you were young today– 290 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:09,400 -you would probably get an autism diagnosis. What do you mean then? 291 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:17,440 I have an ability, or lack of ability, to focus on one thing very closely. 292 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:24,520 It matches with autism and Asperger's spectrum. 293 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:31,840 This means that you don't become so social, because you read and try to remember. 294 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:38,560 You get lost in other ways. The word "nerd" was invented with me in mind. 295 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,080 But for me it became a strength. 296 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:50,840 I am an example of that if anything in one's personality is troubling– 297 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,480 – it can prove to be a great asset. 298 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,560 I have one last question: 299 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,640 -How much screen time do you have? - Yes... 300 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,880 I often sit in front of a screen. 301 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:17,640 My kids tease me because I prefer email to SMS. 302 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,920 "Message if you want us anything." 303 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,200 They check their email sometimes, but it's not that important. 304 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:32,760 But I protest, because I like long documents and formulations. 305 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,320 But I'm sitting at the computer a lot now– 306 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:45,200 – because I constantly ask Copilot questions or Chat GPT to learn things. 307 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:52,600 I email and read on various websites. I don't play a lot of computer games. 308 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,480 I have employees for social media. 309 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,160 I'm not like Elon in the middle of the night– 310 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,080 -or like Trump with his typos. I spell well. 311 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,520 Would that ruin it for you if you posted on social media at night? 312 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,800 Yes, it would probably disturb my discipline– 313 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:19,160 – when it comes to thinking and formulate my statements. 314 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,240 But I'm sitting at the computer almost all the time. 315 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,960 Now you also use AI to different projects. 316 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,840 You collaborate with Open AI around a project in Africa. 317 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,760 Yes, my foundation will cooperate with all leading AI companies. 318 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:45,880 We want to produce a virtual doctor or teacher of the poor– 319 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:53,680 –or help small farmers to understand when to plant what. 320 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,920 AI should not only produce new things, as seeds or medicine– 321 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,400 – but also contribute to the practical implementation. 322 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:09,160 The foundation also compiles data on small African languages. 323 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:16,520 Being able to ask AI about medicine or cultivation - it's miraculous! 324 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:23,080 But it is still early. We are going to start a pilot project in Rwanda. 325 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,240 In a year we will know how well it works– 326 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,880 – and how we should design the system for those with the greatest need. 327 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,000 Bill Gates, the Eternal Geek. Thank you for coming. 328 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:48,400 Little did Bill Gates know how the digital the world would look like fifty years later. 329 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:56,200 But a lot of things had been much harder without a screen. 330 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,200 To always carry with you all photo albums. 331 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:15,720 To congratulate everyone you met from upper secondary school and onwards at birth. 332 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,840 Bringing a backdrop with one modern workspace for all meetings. 333 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:33,200 Showing off the sourdough bread one just baked for the public. 334 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,600 To hand over a broken heart to a colleague– 335 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,720 -you vaguely remember has lost his father. 336 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,640 Proving you're not a robot. 337 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,160 It is the best. 338 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,680 welcome here, the actor Marianne Mörck– 339 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,520 –artist Gustaf Norén– 340 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,600 –psychiatrist Anders Hansen– 341 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,720 –youtuber Momo Alikar– 342 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,240 -and the actor and the podcaster Julia Lyskova. 343 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:26,720 I was going to start with you, Marianne. How much screen time do you have? 344 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,880 It's my night companion, because I live alone. 345 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,240 -How many hours do you spend on it? -Three, four. 346 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,080 Because I don't fall asleep at night... I can speak Swedish! 347 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,760 I don't fall asleep on... No! I don't fall asleep at night. 348 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,960 We'll talk more about it. How much screen time do you have, Julia? 349 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,960 My screen time is approx 4 hours and 30 minutes, on average. 350 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,640 -Anders? -Two hours. 351 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,440 -Gustaf? - I checked now. 1.42 it was. 352 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,600 1.42, yes... 353 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,040 - Is that really true? - I don't know you that well. 354 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,240 I didn't know if it was a measurement. 355 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,440 - It is little. -How much do you have, Momo? 356 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:20,240 I was 19 a week ago, but now it's at 20. 357 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,000 – Hours? - Yes, 20.5 hours. I have to... 358 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,920 But is it per week? Or every day? 359 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,120 Every day, yes. Sometimes it can go up to 23 hours. 360 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,600 -But you never sleep? - I sleep with the phone. 361 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,800 - You are like a vampire. - I sleep with an audiobook, a podcast. 362 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,760 I'm trying to be a better person. So I'm always online. 363 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,560 An hour - it's almost illegal. It's boring. 364 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,080 I shake my head. It is today's youth. 365 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:55,800 However, I am 30. 366 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:01,120 Much of this time goes to social media, right? 367 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:07,480 Yes. But if I want to check on entertainment, I do it. 368 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,160 When I want to learn something, I will do it. 369 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:16,160 I can turn on a four-hour podcast about how to become a better person. 370 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,440 So I'm always connected, but I choose which way. 371 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,680 Do you always want to be a better person? 372 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,360 One hundred percent, always. 373 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,360 What do you do with the hour like you are not on the screen? 374 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,080 - I train. I exercise. -An hour a day? 375 00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:35,760 But then I also have my mobile up! 376 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,800 I usually film when I train, so I'm still online. 377 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,960 What are you doing on the screen? 378 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,920 I love the internet and social media and such. 379 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,000 So that I... What do I do? 380 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:57,120 Sometimes I read a column. Most of the time I'm just on Instagram. 381 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,120 I can slide into Flashback night time. 382 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,160 It is a place that does not... 383 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,440 It's fair to say that Flashback doesn't make you a better person? 384 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,400 Absolutely not. 385 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:17,080 There are many other sites as well That doesn't make you a better person. 386 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:21,920 I don't surf to become a better person. 387 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,720 I just do it for reward. 388 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,320 Has it seemed as positive in your life? 389 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,680 No, but that shame I know again. 390 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,920 If you were to check my phone, then I would feel very bad. 391 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,560 It would feel almost offensive. It would be felt deep inside me. 392 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:44,720 How then? 393 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:50,600 When I got rid of it... It was not like i had a sore thumb– 394 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,480 -but I felt something deep inside. 395 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,760 I became interested in it which was within me, the soul- 396 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:03,240 -and began to understand that I actually felt bad. 397 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:08,720 Maybe I was fine at first, but after an hour I felt... 398 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,280 ...that I was rotten or drained inside, like a shell. 399 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,600 -So you've stopped using social media? - Yes, I had to. For real. 400 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,960 -When was this? -2017. It was a long time ago. 401 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,040 So you've been drug free for ten years soon? 402 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:32,560 Yes, 2017. Back then were people afraid of Donald Trump. 403 00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:36,720 Guys were playing Minecraft and Fortnite and girls listened to Taylor Swift. 404 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,120 It's been too long! Today it is completely different... 405 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,080 Anders, what has he been through? 406 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:51,120 Good question. I have a similar experience. 407 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,280 I have always loved to read. It is an important part of my life. 408 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,520 Around 2014, 2015 I noticed that I couldn't take it anymore. 409 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,600 When I got to a heavier passage in a book, I put it aside. 410 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:12,440 “What has piqued my interest for literature suddenly disappeared?" 411 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:17,320 I suspected the phone, so I hung up the one in another room. And then it worked. 412 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,760 Then I thought: Why is that? hard to put down the phone? 413 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:29,840 Several deep-seated psychological mechanisms in us have been hacked. 414 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,080 It doesn't mean that the phone is just bad– 415 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:40,160 - but we spend way too much time for it, most people think. 416 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:45,200 Julia tells when it comes to, for example, anxiety– 417 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,600 - that it has been a support and given a context. 418 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,920 - Has it worked out positively for you? - Yes, and general contact. 419 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,680 It just doesn't need to be social media. 420 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,880 I am single and lives alone in my household. 421 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:06,000 I call people and talk on the phone probably five hours per day, at least. 422 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:12,080 For me, the phone is a source to contact with other people. 423 00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:16,600 I also freelance, so I don't have a clear office. 424 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,840 Then I sit myself down for coffee and trying to talk to people– 425 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,000 - but it is not always it is appreciated or works. 426 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,400 Do you think social media made you more social? 427 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,360 Huh-huh. Nah. 428 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,720 - I become even more trapped. -In what way? 429 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:45,320 I have to grab something, and then I dive those shoes up that i was looking at. 430 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,960 Those were good shoes, because I mostly walk in slippers. 431 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,360 And then it doesn't take more than... 432 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:59,200 Swish says so, and so it comes: "You might be interested in this?" 433 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:05,960 No. I have not asked to be admitted seven pairs of shoes. It's hard! 434 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,960 What social media do you use? 435 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,800 Not Facebook and not Instagram, but I sneak on Instagram. 436 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:21,320 - You have an Instagram account. -How do you know that? 437 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,800 - Because I have checked... - I don't have it! 438 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:29,800 Yes, and there are two posts. It is partly this one. 439 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,600 -Oh, oh, oh! - It's your... 440 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,560 - It has 49 likes and 5 comments. -Nice! 441 00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:41,080 That is my soul! 442 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:51,320 And then... We go into your account and see that you have made two posts. 443 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,920 Here is the second. Exactly the same again. 444 00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,520 It seems to be a mammogram of some kind. 445 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,440 It might be too late! 446 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,120 I want to turn to the gentlemen. I don't want to feel bad. 447 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:15,600 But I will continue with mine screen time, because I feel good about this. 448 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,520 I have been online since I was 22 years old. Now it is eight years plus. 449 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:26,240 I feel great, Anders. So, I feel as good as one can feel. 450 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:32,880 I'm working on myself, I'm ready for a partner and an apartment. 451 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,360 -Do you have time with a partner? - I'm ready for love. 452 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,960 - Then you get to be a little soft with the device. - Yes, then I have to. 453 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,720 But you can find love in the device as well. 454 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,560 If you had a partner screen time would go down, I hope. 455 00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:51,960 Don't know. I've never had one. 456 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:58,000 There are many who feel well and have it as an aid socially. 457 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:03,120 But on average, teenagers fare worse of overusing social media. 458 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:08,560 I don't think so, but it is clear that it is so. 459 00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:14,040 The majority of teenagers want to they spent less time on social media. 460 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,760 Then it's just a matter of logging out, isn't it? It doesn't work. 461 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,800 Logging out is in practice to live in the forest as a hermit. 462 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,960 I've heard that so much: Logging out is like turning off. 463 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,520 Many say that you switch off, has blinders. 464 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:35,640 When I logged out, I didn't close off, but I started something. 465 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,840 I opened something. The screens disappeared. 466 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,040 The whole world opened up. 467 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,840 A neighbor asked me about a tree on my own plot. 468 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,840 And I looked at the tree. "I have no idea." 469 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:57,320 I didn't know what was growing on MINE farm. I knew nothing about my world. 470 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,920 I knew all about political conflicts - everything was automatic. 471 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:09,640 I was a slave to the algorithms, and I... What can I say? 472 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:15,680 I have worked with young people for many years in junior high and high school. 473 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:21,120 I have talked to them a lot about it. It is exactly that experience. 474 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:26,360 They feel controlled. They talk about "escape the matrix". 475 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:31,240 They don't want to be part of the system. They call each other new swear words. 476 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:37,280 They call each other NPCs. Have you heard that? "You are an NPC." 477 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:43,160 -What does this mean? - It is a non-playable character. 478 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:48,640 So a human being which is controlled by an algorithm. 479 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,640 They call each other robots. It has become a swear word. 480 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:57,160 They just follow something, something programmed. 481 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,360 I understand, but the internet is a huge place. 482 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,800 You as a human being can choose what you consume. 483 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,520 It's not that hard - get off Tiktok. 484 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:11,160 But you can do it to only consume positive content? 485 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,320 I have switched off Aftonbladet's fast news. 486 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:20,200 I don't want the news stuff. But I know what I focus on. 487 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:27,000 I've seen you focus very much on...your hairline. 488 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:32,640 Yes. I have a bad hairline, I'm open to it. 489 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,800 But bad...? 490 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:39,640 - This is an internet thing. - I have a lot of followers. 491 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:45,520 Log out, and you'll find out there are no good and bad hairlines. 492 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,720 - It's very strange! - It is true. 493 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:54,240 And I know everything about the net, because I talk to my young people. 494 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,240 That is looksmaxxing, that you should keep... 495 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:06,440 But that doesn't exist! It is like being stuck in front of a mirror. 496 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,440 Then it is clear that you are thinking about how your hair lays. 497 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,720 You don't do that on a walk. 498 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,960 I will fix my hairline, but it was well said. 499 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,160 Julia, does this make you shallower? You will be, won't you? 500 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:26,840 Yes, but you get that from TV too. I don't know. Yes, you become more superficial. 501 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,640 Or like this: I think I will be uglier the more I'm on the internet. 502 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:37,160 Do you feel a need, Marianne? of sharing a little more of your life? 503 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,280 No, never! 504 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,640 - But chat? Don't want to chat? -With whom then? 505 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,200 – Me, maybe? -No! 506 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,440 Sorry. But I'm not on Facebook. 507 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:58,840 When the microwave arrived, I thought: What progress we have made! 508 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,360 Couldn't we have stayed there a little while? 509 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,880 Does everything have to go so damn fast? 510 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,680 You don't have time to go to bed at night– 511 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,520 - and then you wake up and check what time it is. 512 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,880 "Your phone has been updated during the night." 513 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:23,160 Then you won't find half of it. That has changed, it's different colors– 514 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,240 – and the apps to look for. 515 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:32,840 You remember a time before all this, before the screens. 516 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,440 -World War II, you mean? - Yes, sort of! 517 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:43,760 Well, but before Bill Gates sat us in front of the screens in 1975, type. 518 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,560 They rode a load of hay. Do you understand? 519 00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:53,600 How old are you...? They rode a load of hay, they hurried out– 520 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:59,240 - to see if you could go along Albin's load of hay and jumped up there. 521 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:04,080 The smell of it and it rocked and you sat on that wooden thing. 522 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:06,840 And then to shine in crayfish- 523 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,080 -and swindle the farmer's crayfish out of his mires. 524 00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:14,960 -And took the boat and went out. - It was better before. 525 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,800 Have these social media, for example– 526 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:24,680 –have they changed in recent years? Has it become very different? 527 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:29,000 Previously was social media a tool where you post things– 528 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:34,000 –people posted pictures of their lives and communicated with their surroundings. 529 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:40,120 Now it has slipped into increasingly AI- generated material or short clips. 530 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:45,520 Why? Well, the product of social media is not a platform for images. 531 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:50,080 The product is our attention. There isn't much at all. 532 00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:55,560 8.5 billion people times 16 waking hours. For you it is 20. 533 00:46:55,720 --> 00:47:01,880 The companies fight over that raw material and must extract as much as possible. 534 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,640 And they are getting better at it. Now everyone is starting to imitate Tiktok. 535 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,080 -What does it do to our concentration? - It is deteriorating. 536 00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:15,520 This is known from well-conducted studies, the first came around the turn of the millennium: 537 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:21,240 How long do people focus on one task at work before they switch? 538 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:26,320 Then it was 2.5 minutes on average. Now it's down to 47 seconds. 539 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,160 So we become more easily distracted– 540 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:34,880 - and find it increasingly difficult to stay focused a longer time on one and the same thing. 541 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,120 I use social media like ten years ago: 542 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,040 Youtubers and creators which I want to check out. 543 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:47,920 But when everything becomes short reels and things that go very fast– 544 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,720 -don't you notice that it makes you tired? 545 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,960 I have ADHD, Fredrik. So that kind of content is for me. 546 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,600 When it went from long to short format, I felt: "That's my thing." 547 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,120 It works for me right now. 548 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:09,200 - Is it adapted to the ADHD brain? - A little like that. 549 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,080 Do you never take breaks? 550 00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:16,640 I took a break when I didn't get have the mobile phone for two years. 551 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,640 -Two years?! -No! Two weeks. 552 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,080 It felt like two years! 553 00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:25,720 During that period I actually felt incredibly well. 554 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:30,480 So there is a life without 19 hours screen time, even for you? 555 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:35,760 - One hundred percent. - I don't understand what to do. 556 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,520 – Without a screen? -Yes. 557 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:44,640 As I say: I live alone, I'm a freelancer. What should I... 558 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:50,000 -Marianne had a lot of suggestions. -What was it? Hay bale? 559 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,360 – On Södermalm? -There is. 560 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,040 -What do you say? Hay...? – Hay ball. 561 00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,640 - No, hay wagon. - When you log out, they build hay bales. 562 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,240 And Albin, the horse. 563 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,040 Anders, there is something called brain rot. 564 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:14,400 It is a metaphorical expression. That It's not like something rots in the brain. 565 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:19,120 It is a way of expression that our concentration is eroded. 566 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:24,200 We find it increasingly difficult to stay focused. There was a study done recently– 567 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:29,440 - where it could be shown that 11–14-year-olds who overuse social media– 568 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,680 – had poorer concentration three years later. 569 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:38,960 TV didn't have that impact, but it was precisely social media. 570 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,640 Brain rot is a dramatic expression– 571 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,520 - and I don't think so that it creates permanent damage. 572 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:53,680 It's so-called root psychology, isn't it? It's like gaming psychology. 573 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,520 Yes, exactly. So some type of regulation is needed. 574 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,360 We sit in a house - you can't build houses anyway. 575 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:08,440 You may not build cars or bridges anyway – it's infrastructure. 576 00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:13,920 The network has also become infrastructure in society, such as the houses or the roads. 577 00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:18,720 But for some reason we have accepted that there is no need for regulations there. 578 00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,840 Are we talking about a ban now? 579 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:27,400 -Banning social media? -You say with fear in your voice...! 580 00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:33,160 No, but to regulate them somehow. Don't you like it? 581 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:41,160 No. You should teach the youth to use the internet in the right way. 582 00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:46,440 One proposal is an age ban, which has been introduced in Australia. 583 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,280 Or that you remove the algorithm most addictive parts. 584 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:56,960 That it doesn't feed one automatically with new content. 585 00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:00,440 And that researchers should have access to data– 586 00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:05,520 – to see that they clear that stuff out that trigger hatred or eating disorders. 587 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,760 Those are the types of regulations as thought. 588 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,880 What do we think of the screen tips– 589 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:18,360 –which the government has launched? The Swedish screen advice. 590 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,160 Advice and guidelines are good. 591 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,840 I was part of a panel debate where someone said: 592 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,800 “We're doing it to develop talking points"– 593 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:33,160 –“so parents can discuss screens with their children." 594 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,520 As if that would be the solution. 595 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:40,160 It's like asking for candy in the bathtub in the school cafeteria– 596 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,520 – and expect that the children should eat broccoli. 597 00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:48,200 And that the solution is that dining staff have good "talking points" – 598 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,400 – to argue for the broccoli. It doesn't work that way! 599 00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:59,280 Do you agree, Julia? Or do you follow the screen advice? 600 00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:04,560 Absolutely not. I think too that I find it difficult to regulate. 601 00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:11,080 I love the internet, that you can talk to anyone in the world. 602 00:52:11,240 --> 00:52:15,880 So I understand that young people… I can't regulate it as an adult. 603 00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:21,840 Also keep in mind that digitization only just started. 604 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:23,640 Surely it is terrible? 605 00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:28,120 It's scary. The material we see can be so customized… 606 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,120 I want to remind about human potential. 607 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:35,200 I think that this robot man… 608 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:39,840 I am more afraid of that man should become like a robot than the other way around. 609 00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:44,760 That we become robot-like in behavior. That's what I mean by NPC. 610 00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,240 Talking to young people so are they also aware of– 611 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,440 –the robot-like state they end up in. 612 00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:57,200 - Is the answer to that strict regulation? - No, human knowledge. 613 00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:02,160 The answer is to get to know yourself and understand how to operate. 614 00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,200 Shouldn't the government set limits? 615 00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,680 How much the National Board of Health and Welfare than recommend– 616 00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:15,200 - still have to be dealt with that there is alcohol, tobacco, drugs– 617 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:20,280 –crime, cool stuff… It always will be. 618 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:25,720 The state regulates that anyway. A 15-year-old cannot buy alcohol. 619 00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:30,400 A man must learn about his potential. What a man can do. 620 00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,600 I believe that man can lift mountains. 621 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:35,760 The world feels a little scary now. 622 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:42,320 - How sad that you are so worried. - The Internet is a place to escape to. 623 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:47,760 But is there anyone here which are too strict restrictions? 624 00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,440 - Yes, that would have been nice. -What kind of restrictions? 625 00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:58,800 That an eleven-year-old shouldn't get a lot bad content on their Tiktok. 626 00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:02,080 But I have respect for Marianne's lifestyle. 627 00:54:02,240 --> 00:54:06,640 She came from a time without telephones. Now we are heading towards a time... 628 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,080 Well they had... 629 00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:16,160 - There was something called a landline. -That's what it was called! 630 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:21,320 It was a disk and you could call. They did so. 631 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:26,240 - But how did you dial the number...? - It is in some museum. 632 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:31,800 We are heading towards a world where people have five screens and only says the number. 633 00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,520 That world is not so scary. 634 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,280 I think we are heading towards a nice AI future. 635 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,800 It is life-threatening. Can't we stay... 636 00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:46,040 Imagine if we had stayed by the microwave! 637 00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:51,680 Then we hadn't discussed the future and what it does to the children. 638 00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:57,640 But I understand that you like emojis. You think that's fun. 639 00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:02,840 Yes, it's fun, because it shortens everything I should have written. 640 00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,040 "Hope you are well" and "I love you". 641 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,880 Which emoji do you use the most? 642 00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,800 The round yellow one with three hearts in– 643 00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:16,640 -and then there is the one, and the angel, the little angel– 644 00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,800 - and then there is a four-leaf clover. 645 00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,640 -What does the four-leaf clover mean? – "Good luck to you." 646 00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:29,840 Julia, there are those who believe that screen addiction becomes a class issue. 647 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,840 That the elite will end it– 648 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:38,520 - and that it will then become something for people who don't have a job. 649 00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,520 That it becomes an entertainment machine. 650 00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,400 A friend did an exchange year at Harvard in the early 00s. 651 00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:49,400 He was back in Boston visiting their old coursers recently. 652 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,600 He met their children which was around 10–13 years. 653 00:55:53,760 --> 00:56:00,000 None of them had smartphones. He asked how it happened. 654 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,520 “You can't give 12-year-olds smartphone." 655 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,040 “Then they just sit with Snapchat and don't study." 656 00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,240 "How did you manage that?" 657 00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:14,200 "We agreed on that at school. None parents give their children smartphones." 658 00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:18,320 Then all parents have to keep it, otherwise it won't work. 659 00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,240 These were liberal people– 660 00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:25,520 – who were not in favor of restrictions generally and where for technology. 661 00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,960 But they understand that it exists a downside, especially for young people. 662 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:34,400 - They had knowledge and could cooperate. - So it will be a class issue, absolutely. 663 00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:42,640 Okay. We have asked Norstat to ask a thousand Swedes– 664 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:48,840 -so a statistically representative sample from all over the country, about their screen habits. 665 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:53,040 Do they think the world had been a better place without screens? 666 00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,760 Now you have to check, Gustaf, because here comes the answer. 667 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:01,360 No, answer two-thirds of Swedes. 668 00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,920 They don't think so that the world would be a better place. 669 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:10,440 But let's look a little closer we see big generational differences. 670 00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,400 Who is the most screen skeptic, do you think? You see that here. 671 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:19,000 That is more than half of those under 30– 672 00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:23,280 – who think the world would have been better without screens. 673 00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:28,640 It is also that group where most consider themselves screen addicts. 674 00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:34,160 Almost 70 percent of young people looks like a screen addict. 675 00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,520 You can probably see that as a cry for help, Momos? 676 00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:42,680 A cry for help, or that they are having fun. 677 00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,880 But also a small cry for help. 678 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:51,000 I'm that 30-year-old which is dependent on screen time. 679 00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:56,680 - But I'm fine, Fredrik. - That's what everyone who is addicted says! 680 00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,200 “I love it! I don't want to stop!" 681 00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:07,240 Very troublesome. So, we love… Things that feel right can be wrong. 682 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:11,080 And everything I think feels wrong is correct. 683 00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,800 It feels very uncomfortable to train. 684 00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:18,440 I feel that my heart does not can handle it. But you have to do that. 685 00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:23,800 I think it feels very wrong to meditate. I get anxiety. 686 00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:29,200 But I think it feels very right to drink three glasses of wine. 687 00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:34,280 - Yes, exactly. - But I know it's wrong! 688 00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:39,800 We also asked about social media makes us more social. 689 00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,320 Then the Swedes replied like this. 690 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,920 No, say almost eight out of ten Swedes. 691 00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,760 Here it seems you get the nod, Gustaf. 692 00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,440 Where do we take the screens? Check here. 693 00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:59,600 65 percent use a screen in bed. 694 00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,200 45 percent at the dinner table. 695 00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:07,320 In a restaurant it's a little more decent, only 19 percent bring the screen. 696 00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,840 And over half seem to scroll on the toilet. 697 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,600 -Huh? -Would you never scroll on the toilet? 698 00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,040 Then you get hemorrhoids. 699 00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:23,520 -Where would you be able to scroll, then? -In bed. 700 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:29,360 I usually hang it on the wall with a suction cup, so it just sits there. 701 00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:33,080 Who are you really? 702 00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:39,280 - I'm dying! -You scroll everywhere? 703 00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:41,880 All those places I scroll. 704 00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:47,880 If Momo would try come down to twelve hours, then? 705 00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,280 No, 15. 706 00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:55,320 You have to ask yourself if you want it. If you feel well, there is no problem. 707 00:59:55,480 --> 01:00:00,280 If you want to cut back, is the most important thing to have it in other places. 708 01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:06,200 Don't keep it in the bedroom, bye the meeting table, in the classroom and so on. 709 01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,600 These are strong psychological mechanisms that is hacked– 710 01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:13,640 - and which means that we have to moderate the instinct to pick up the phone. 711 01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:19,120 -Have you been addicted to screen time? - No, I wouldn't say that. 712 01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:23,160 -But you are happily addicted? - Right now, yes. 713 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:29,040 But Anders has a lot of good things to say. I will think about it. 714 01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,360 Did something happen to you tonight? 715 01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:38,280 I will put the mobile in one another room and test how it feels. 716 01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:41,120 Wow! 717 01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,080 - I have to test. - This will be exciting. 718 01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:49,480 - We will follow it up and see how it goes. - See if I'm alive in ten years. 719 01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:54,640 Thank you for coming here, Marianne, Momo, Gustaf, Julia and Anders. 720 01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,320 We'll be back in a week. 721 01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,520 Translation: M. Bach, E. Larsen, E. Enström, J. Jakobsson Swedish media text for SVT